Jewish agnostic Chicagoan Mookie Spitz and Muslim agnostic Canadian Ali A. Rizvi — who grew up bouncing between Saudi Arabia, Libya, and Pakistan — dive headlong into one of the planet’s most radioactive debates: the two-state solution for Israel and Palestine.
It’s a showdown years in the making. Normally aligned on nearly everything, from atheism to trashing fundamentalists of all stripes, this time they find themselves on diametrically opposite sides. Ali argues that the Middle East’s tectonic shifts — from Iran’s battered proxies and Saudi Arabia’s Vision 2030 opening, to a new generation of Palestinians crushed by war and ready for anything that looks like stability — might finally have created fertile ground for a version of the mythical two-state solution.
Mookie, meanwhile, calls bullshit. With Netanyahu’s most extremist right-wing government ever holding all the cards, Iran temporarily neutered, Gaza bombed back into the Stone Age, and the West Bank crawling with settlers, he says there’s no pragmatic incentive for Israel’s leadership to concede an inch. Annexation, not coexistence, is the dream they’re closest to realizing.
The two circle everything from Saudi oil leverage, America’s shifting public opinion on Israel, the transactional mind of Trump (chasing a Nobel Prize one luxury jet at a time), to how the Abraham Accords were built on throwing the Palestinians under the bus in the first place. They debate whether Israeli Arabs living inside the Green Line — largely getting on with life — foreshadow what could emerge in Gaza or the West Bank, or if that’s naive fantasy.
They even get personal: hashing out how growing up Jewish or Muslim shapes their cynicism, how liberal Westerners love to play armchair quarterback, and why the whole region’s future might hinge on everything from evangelical Christian delusions about Israel being Jesus’ landing pad to Gulf monarchs trying to distract their own restless populations with concerts, WWE, and F1.
Expect raw, unscripted takes, dark laughs, history lessons without the bullshit, and more than a few rants that’ll piss everyone off. And hey, if you’re still hoping for that elusive “peace in our time”? Tune in and watch that mirage get roasted and served back up warm, depending on you agreeing with Ali or Mookie.
The Guest
Ali A. Rizvi is a writer, physician, and musician. He is the author of “The Atheist Muslim: A Journey from Religion to Reason”, host of the Unlicensed Therapist podcast, and all-round sh*t disturber.
His Book
His Podcast
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